WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:10.600 Good morning and welcome. It's lovely to have you here. We're at a time right now where 00:10.600 --> 00:16.200 social media platforms are increasingly having a negative impact on our societies. Stuff 00:16.200 --> 00:21.640 like disinformation, radicalization, hate speech, and also censorship on the other side 00:21.640 --> 00:29.880 of the equation. And these are all becoming really growing problems for our society. So 00:29.880 --> 00:34.080 different responses have emerged coming from different places. From the side of the European 00:34.080 --> 00:38.760 Union, there has been the DSA or Digital Services Act, which is a law that regulates 00:38.760 --> 00:43.960 how platforms work and how they can be moderated. But there's also been a technical 00:43.960 --> 00:49.840 solution that's come in the form of the Fediverse, a decentralized community of communities, 00:49.840 --> 00:54.200 which brings people together in a radically new way compared to how it's been done up until 00:54.200 --> 01:01.040 now. And so this panel is really about exploring what those approaches are and how they're 01:01.040 --> 01:06.560 very different. So, what is today we have some amazing panelists, our first panelist 01:06.560 --> 01:10.960 to my left is Alexandra Giza, member of the European Parliament and a full-mine negotiator 01:10.960 --> 01:16.600 of the EU's Digital Services Act. Alexandra is undoubtedly the leading MEP when it comes 01:16.600 --> 01:23.840 to social media and online moderation issues. She's also on the Fediverse. I don't think 01:23.840 --> 01:29.800 I've put the handles unfortunately, but you will be able to find her if you search. Next 01:29.800 --> 01:34.840 we have Felix Latke. I really hope I got the pronunciation, okay? Felix is a season 01:34.840 --> 01:40.600 business professional who has been working with Macedon now for half a decade, I believe, 01:40.600 --> 01:46.480 and has recently become its executive director, so congratulations to you Felix. And finally 01:46.480 --> 01:52.280 we have Sandra Bartels. I had the pleasure of meeting Sandra at SFSCon in Italy earlier this 01:52.360 --> 02:02.520 year now. And Sandra has 15 years of experience in working on digital policy and in working 02:02.520 --> 02:07.080 on digital infrastructures as a common good. In addition to this, she's recently founded 02:07.080 --> 02:11.680 the Amazing Alliance of Open Networks and Democratic Public Affairs and Organisation which is 02:11.680 --> 02:17.400 dedicated to promoting the Fediverse and other decentralized social media platforms. Finally 02:17.480 --> 02:22.920 there's me. I'm Jordan Maris. I'm the EU Policy Analyst for the Open Source Initiative and 02:22.920 --> 02:27.480 I also have former experience working on the Digital Services Act in the European Parliament. 02:27.480 --> 02:31.760 I'll be your moderator for this session and thank you very much to our esteemed panelists 02:31.760 --> 02:37.960 for being here. Give them a round of applause, please. 02:41.640 --> 02:44.600 So I'm going to steal my own notes back because if I don't, I won't. They have to remember 02:44.600 --> 02:50.360 what I have to say. So we're going to start off talking about the Digital Services Act and 02:50.360 --> 02:55.400 we're going to ask Alexandra. So it's one of the leading negotiators for the DSA and explain 02:55.400 --> 02:59.640 to us a little bit about what it's about and how it tries to solve the problems we have on social 02:59.640 --> 03:04.840 media today. Yeah, thanks a lot. Good morning. Good morning everybody. It's not exactly 03:04.840 --> 03:11.560 morning anymore, but anyway. Well the DSA was basically born in 2020 and that was a very, 03:11.640 --> 03:17.480 very different world as we all remember. And the basic idea was to create a digital rule 03:17.480 --> 03:25.320 work sort of a fundamental law for social media in Europe which would avoid a fragmentation of legislation 03:25.320 --> 03:30.760 between 27 countries because at the time the analysis was that the American companies got 03:30.760 --> 03:37.240 big because they had one big market and in Europe we didn't really have a digital internal market. 03:37.240 --> 03:41.320 So that was the basic idea the commission came with. And then they came with some basic 03:41.400 --> 03:47.560 elements which were, you know, how do the platforms need to deal with notifications for illegal 03:47.560 --> 03:53.640 content? How can people know organization notify illegal content? How do they have to react to that? 03:54.760 --> 03:59.960 The second, so something really very basic. The second important thing that we fought a lot 03:59.960 --> 04:06.760 for in a sea muscle collier also in the room was users rights. You know with the DSA we have 04:06.760 --> 04:12.360 the first piece of legislation where the users are given rights against the platforms if they 04:12.360 --> 04:17.720 are content is taken down, if their account is taken down, if their shadow band, all these kinds 04:17.720 --> 04:23.480 of things and that at the time was something new. But I think what today is really relevant 04:23.480 --> 04:28.760 and what the DSA did and what the national laws that were coming or that in Germany had already 04:28.760 --> 04:34.760 come in existence didn't have is that the DSA allows us to look at what the platforms themselves 04:34.840 --> 04:39.400 are doing and not only the users. Up to that point the whole debate had been around 04:39.400 --> 04:44.840 what a user's post should platform be allowed to take down users' content, what should they do? 04:44.840 --> 04:51.480 What the DSA does, it says in the second part we have a right to know what the platforms are doing 04:51.480 --> 04:56.680 they have to be transparent and we have a right to change whatever they are doing and I think that 04:56.680 --> 05:01.720 is the article that's really important today. It's article 34 of the DSA for the DSA nerds 05:01.720 --> 05:08.360 and it speaks about risk assessments for systemic risk. So there's a number of systemic risk 05:08.360 --> 05:13.320 to define in the DSA, it's basically our fundamental rights, data protection, freedom of information, 05:13.320 --> 05:20.440 freedom of expression, public discourse and electoral manipulation or electoral processes, 05:20.440 --> 05:26.440 think of Romania where they had to repeat of a presidential election because of the manipulation 05:26.520 --> 05:31.960 going on on TikTok but it's also gender based violence and you remember the last weeks with new 05:31.960 --> 05:37.720 pictures of on on work for example that falls under it public health and a number of things. So 05:38.920 --> 05:44.280 the platforms that very large online platforms more than 45 million users have to assess those 05:44.280 --> 05:50.360 risk and if the commission thinks they assess them incorrectly and there is a systemic risk 05:50.360 --> 05:56.280 the commission can give them what they call mitigating measures so they can be forced to change 05:56.280 --> 06:01.880 the algorithms to change the targeting system to change the business model so it goes very deeply 06:02.440 --> 06:07.000 and I think that is really decisive right now because when you mentioned this information for 06:07.000 --> 06:12.440 example as a risk and what nobody in your want to do is have a ministry of truth and besides 06:12.440 --> 06:17.160 which content is this information and which is not for various obvious risk to freedom of expression 06:17.160 --> 06:23.160 but if you have an algorithm now go with mixed system that basically that is based on engagement 06:23.160 --> 06:31.880 and engagement as we know by our human biology goes after negative emotions so anger, outrage, fear 06:32.280 --> 06:38.600 and if the whole system is focused on getting people angry, on getting people's hate out, 06:38.600 --> 06:43.480 on making people fearful you're going to have a problem with this information because that becomes a 06:43.560 --> 06:50.440 huge business model and the same thing for polarization of society, risk to democracies. 06:50.440 --> 06:57.080 It basically rewards content that wants to destroy democratic societies and this is why I think 06:57.080 --> 07:04.040 that article could be extremely powerful in going back to algorithms where people choose their content 07:04.040 --> 07:09.240 it shouldn't be Elon Musk choosing our content, be Mark Zuckerberg or Larry Ellison now on 07:09.240 --> 07:15.080 TikTok choosing people's content through the algorithm in an indirect way in a very subtle way that's 07:15.080 --> 07:20.280 very hard to attack it should be users themselves and very intelligent way who choose their 07:20.280 --> 07:25.800 own content and this is what we could do with the DSA if this commission if the member states 07:25.800 --> 07:31.800 and everybody out they had the political courage to do that. You mentioned very briefly the concept 07:31.800 --> 07:37.160 of a ministry of truth I think a lot of people in this room will agree with you but we've had lots 07:37.160 --> 07:41.400 of criticism from the other side of the Atlantic particularly about the DSA being a so good 07:41.400 --> 07:46.440 censorship law and what would you have to say to people who say that to have those concerns? 07:47.720 --> 07:52.280 Well I think everybody who has been following what's happening on TikTok since the Americans 07:52.280 --> 07:58.520 took it over I mean the people who keep attacking Europe saying we have censorship the first time 07:58.520 --> 08:02.760 they get their hands on TikTok the first things you can't treat you can't write about 08:02.760 --> 08:07.640 Epstein anymore you can't talk about Minnesota anymore you can't talk about ICE anymore if that 08:07.640 --> 08:11.720 is not censorship I don't know what it is frankly you know let's let's help the hard evidence 08:11.720 --> 08:16.360 but whoever has followed that in the past past days it's pretty obvious so I think that that's 08:16.360 --> 08:21.960 the first point they're using you know the ones who're trying to abolish freedom of expression 08:21.960 --> 08:27.320 are the ones using that argument against that which is pretty ridiculous the second thing is 08:28.200 --> 08:34.600 it's exactly the contrary of what the DSA is there is really no point in the DSA where it says 08:34.600 --> 08:41.480 that kind of content can be online you know what can be said and what cannot be said is decided 08:41.480 --> 08:46.520 in the member states on the basis by the Parliament's off the member states it's the law we have 08:46.520 --> 08:52.360 in the member states so in Germany you can't have Holocaust rely on you know it's it's law we decided 08:52.360 --> 08:57.240 that for good historical reasons and I think 95% of the German population stand absolutely behind 08:58.200 --> 09:04.040 so this is if that is illegal offline it should also be illegal online and then market isn't 09:04.040 --> 09:10.040 so it's fine but that's not up for that's not for the European Commission or for the DSA to decide 09:10.040 --> 09:15.720 the DSA just works on the procedures and on the transparency and how platforms moderate their 09:15.720 --> 09:21.880 content and how they amplify certain voices and them and would use other ones thank you so much 09:21.880 --> 09:26.040 Alexandra we're going to move on to a question for Sandra now if that's okay very briefly so 09:27.000 --> 09:31.400 we've talked a little bit about about the DSA and its application but I think something that we're 09:31.400 --> 09:36.920 noticing more and more is that the platforms who are supposed to be subject to the DSA sometimes 09:36.920 --> 09:42.680 are trying to sneak away or avoid enforcement I wanted to ask you what happens in that situation 09:42.680 --> 09:48.520 and is there anything we can do about it? Well I would say it's safe to say that mostly they don't 09:48.600 --> 09:53.080 comply right that's what we see that they don't comply finally we have those user rights 09:53.080 --> 09:59.160 but they are not enforced and that's a big problem I would say because that makes it the situation 09:59.160 --> 10:05.880 that you can use is still face this impossible choice stay on platforms that vary their value 10:07.880 --> 10:12.680 that are work against their values and also against the personal security right 10:12.840 --> 10:19.160 because leaving this platform what mean losing their identity digital identity losing their 10:19.160 --> 10:24.280 feet and stuff and one solution I would like to push forward is the idea of data 10:24.280 --> 10:30.680 portability so people need to migrate they should have the the right to export their data and 10:30.680 --> 10:36.600 import it somewhere else that will be I think a very valuable solution and on the other hand 10:36.600 --> 10:42.440 Alexandra mentioned it before it's a business model so why do they are not comply with the DSA 10:42.520 --> 10:48.920 because what diminished their revenue right they they would delete this information and add 10:49.800 --> 10:55.800 and harmful ads they would make less revenue and therefore I would suggest it's not the answer you 10:55.800 --> 11:02.360 wanted probably for me but what I think is needed at the national member states make sure that they 11:02.360 --> 11:07.560 have enough personnel for their national DSA officers to actually push through because in 11:08.520 --> 11:15.000 Germany right now out of the 99 people that should work within that office only one third is 11:15.000 --> 11:21.960 there so that's that's what we could work on that's an amazing point Sandra say we've taken 11:21.960 --> 11:28.120 a little look at how they oh do you want to yes of course and do you know the reason why 11:28.120 --> 11:35.960 why only a third is stopped you need to make that one as far as I know because the national budget 11:36.040 --> 11:42.840 doesn't allow for more as one main reason 11:45.880 --> 11:51.640 let us know if you want to tell us Felix no sorry it was a naive question maybe I don't know 11:53.880 --> 11:58.520 okay after all right well in that case since we've had a look at how the DSA works we're going to 11:58.520 --> 12:02.440 move on to talk about the Fediver Sabet so Felix has a lot of expertise in that domain 12:02.440 --> 12:07.720 it's currently the EDF Master Don for those who have just come into the room so Felix before 12:07.720 --> 12:12.360 we get started and for those of us in the room her a bit less familiar I wanted to ask you 12:12.360 --> 12:17.880 so what makes the Fediver's different from traditional social media platforms in a nutshell yeah thank 12:17.880 --> 12:26.760 you so the main difference is how this network is structured it's a network of a lot of small 12:26.840 --> 12:35.400 networks in fact in the Fedivers there's around 30,000 active small servers they can all talk 12:35.400 --> 12:42.920 to each other over the same protocol and this it's not only a technical difference but it's basically 12:42.920 --> 12:49.880 it changes the game and the set of completely in terms of where the responsibilities but also 12:49.880 --> 12:57.880 where the where the power lies and this has a handful of implications it's obviously 12:59.240 --> 13:04.200 the most interesting thing is where where moderation happens it happens on on server level there's 13:04.200 --> 13:08.520 a responsibility so all of these servers they need to comply to the digital service sector 13:10.680 --> 13:18.520 from a regulatory point of view it's it's it's very attractive because they they all of them 13:18.520 --> 13:26.200 default under the SME exemption small media small medium enterprises so all of these servers are 13:26.200 --> 13:32.120 very small so they they fall under this exemption this doesn't mean that this is like the wild west 13:32.120 --> 13:39.960 and they they don't have to do anything there it just means that less things apply but certain things 13:39.960 --> 13:47.720 do and in our view most of these things are a met actually okay well that comes as a bit of a 13:47.800 --> 13:52.360 shock so so many so many of the western communities are not actually subject to the DSA and yet 13:53.000 --> 13:56.760 I've been on messed it on for four years now I think a lot of people in the room are in a similar 13:56.760 --> 14:01.800 situation at least somewhere on the Fedivers it seems like a much nicer place to be than a lot of social 14:01.800 --> 14:09.240 media platform so what's your secret how do you make it like that yeah I hope it's not the secret anymore 14:09.320 --> 14:18.440 because we try to talk about this more transparently than we used to but I think it's it's two things and 14:18.440 --> 14:26.600 and one of them was was mentioned by Alexander already so polarizing content on mustard on 14:26.600 --> 14:32.440 and the broader Fedivers it will never be amplified in the same way as as in other networks 14:32.520 --> 14:38.680 simply because of design choice that this content it doesn't have this strong 14:38.680 --> 14:46.040 amplification but the second thing that is probably more important is that trust and safety is 14:46.040 --> 14:52.440 not an afterthought something that is bolted on later because we need this for regulatory compliance but 14:52.440 --> 14:59.000 it's it's part of the initial product design process it has been and I know that a lot of 14:59.000 --> 15:04.360 community members who are here and and who have been following the mustard on and the broader 15:04.360 --> 15:09.480 Fedivers development from the start they they know where mustard on comes from from from 15:09.480 --> 15:15.240 marginalized communities who who have contributed to the product design of mustard and this 15:15.800 --> 15:23.160 just is is part of of how we as the organization behind it but also the broader developer community 15:24.120 --> 15:32.120 builds this this product there's also third reason most likely that there's no advertisement 15:32.120 --> 15:39.160 business model you know the algorithms together with algorithm this is like really wildfire obviously 15:40.200 --> 15:46.600 and the fact that there's no advertising business model and they will never be one this this really 15:47.480 --> 15:57.000 makes this healthier as you observe okay thank you so much for that so yeah I love the enthusiasm 15:57.000 --> 16:06.840 from the front row let's see how that's okay so so for the last part of our talk today we're going 16:06.840 --> 16:11.000 to talk a bit about what works and what doesn't and Sandra's raised that there are some issues 16:11.000 --> 16:15.000 with the digital sources outside so I want to bring it back to our our political participant 16:16.040 --> 16:20.200 Alexandra last week you made an extremely impactful speech in the European Parliament 16:20.200 --> 16:24.280 it might have been two weeks ago now you made an extremely impactful speech in the European 16:24.280 --> 16:29.080 Parliament about the horrific wave of deep take images which are currently being generated on X 16:30.680 --> 16:36.280 the question that I have for you is is the DSA still working and if not what can we do to fix it on 16:36.360 --> 16:45.960 that side it's it's not being enforced in the way it should be but that's that is not a problem 16:45.960 --> 16:50.680 that is inherent in the DSA I mean there's always way to improve the DSA it wasn't perfect from 16:50.680 --> 16:56.600 the start but I wouldn't you know I would advise against openly right now when it's so much under attack 16:56.600 --> 17:03.960 what is really lacking is the political will and that is the real scandal and that is something 17:04.040 --> 17:12.040 that in 2002 nobody of us could foresee frankly I mean the idea that the main five or seven 17:12.040 --> 17:18.520 tech companies are closely alive with President Trump with the market movement and try to bring in 17:18.520 --> 17:25.720 an authoritarian turn into our democracy that is something that we were not expecting what we are 17:25.720 --> 17:32.040 also not expecting was that the US government would become the first lobbyist in such an aggressive 17:32.040 --> 17:40.760 way using threats around military issues around Ukraine around tariffs against the enforcement 17:40.760 --> 17:46.200 of the DSA and this is what is happening what has been happening it started even three months 17:46.200 --> 17:51.400 before this government was elected when JD Man said oh if you are in force the DSA we would 17:51.400 --> 17:56.760 consider pulling out troops out of NATO and then it went on with threats around around the tariffs 17:56.760 --> 18:00.440 every time the commission does something I think about doing something they come out of you know 18:00.520 --> 18:04.280 we have to slap tariffs on the German order of industry we have to slap tariffs on the German 18:04.280 --> 18:12.920 steel industry and things like that so that is the real problem that something that we want to switch 18:12.920 --> 18:20.360 to this mic is a bit stronger as well yeah this is louder may be more comfortable 18:20.360 --> 18:26.840 something that at the time we thought was just a regulatory issue now it's one of three fundamental 18:26.920 --> 18:34.120 geopolitical conflicts and this is where it's not a question after we need I mean we do need more 18:34.120 --> 18:39.400 people in the enforcement agencies absolutely in Brussels and in the capital that I totally agree 18:39.400 --> 18:46.440 with that but what we really need is the political understanding and the understanding at high 18:46.440 --> 18:53.320 levels high levels of politics that if we want to live in a democracy in five years from now in 18:53.320 --> 18:59.080 Europe this is the big issue we need to tackle it's not only about defending ourselves at our 18:59.080 --> 19:05.320 eastern borders it's not only about bringing our economy up to speed and avoid the terrorist the 19:05.320 --> 19:14.120 most important thing we can do is to reconquer this digital space where public opinion takes place 19:14.120 --> 19:19.880 and that does take a lot of courage and I see that you know for you know we have all seen how Zelensky 19:19.880 --> 19:24.840 was treated in the Oval Office and I'm absolutely sure if the European Commission starts enforcing 19:24.840 --> 19:31.720 the DSA as it should and as it was thought to be enforced there will be a very very strong reaction 19:32.840 --> 19:37.800 but we do need to do this and we do need to do this now and this is what I think everybody in 19:37.800 --> 19:42.440 their countries should tell their policy makers or lawmakers and their governments this is the most 19:42.440 --> 19:47.800 important thing you can do right now enforce the DSA in a meaningful way change these algorithms stop the 19:47.880 --> 19:54.040 targeting and we have good basis in the DSA to reduce that and push the Commission president to do that 19:54.600 --> 19:57.400 that is the most important thing right now absolutely 20:05.960 --> 20:09.960 I'm going to give my speakers the better microphone and just talk as loudly as I can 20:10.680 --> 20:16.120 so so we now know that there is necessary there is a necessity to take action on a government 20:16.280 --> 20:22.520 to level but at the same time of course the Fedivers is beginning to grow into the mainstream 20:23.400 --> 20:27.480 so Felix the question that I already have for you is you know as of late Europeans in 20:27.480 --> 20:33.160 moving more and more to places like Macedon with the censorship now on Twitter we're seeing 20:33.160 --> 20:39.320 Fedivers alternatives such as loops gaining popularity do you think that we can maintain the 20:39.320 --> 20:44.360 pleasant friendly communities that we have on the Fedivers today in the face of this enormous growth 20:45.240 --> 20:56.520 yes I think so but it requires to see where the bottlenecks lie so the bottlenecks I think it's 20:56.520 --> 21:02.440 easy to especially in a very technical audience to first think of a technical bottlenecks 21:02.440 --> 21:08.200 obviously the back end needs to scale things like this we need to to improve tooling 21:08.200 --> 21:14.280 middleware and also to things you I and you X improvements should also not be forgotten but 21:14.280 --> 21:20.040 I think the the much bigger bottleneck and I think this is also what this this question is targeting 21:20.040 --> 21:26.680 is is moderation and moderation needs to scale with it this is something that we we have seen 21:26.680 --> 21:37.480 in in previous growth waves on Macedon and the broader Fedivers so that moderation can scale this 21:38.440 --> 21:47.640 of course the humans behind it the mainly volunteers they they need to have the psychological 21:47.640 --> 21:52.920 support structures the legal support structures of course but also they will need better tools 21:52.920 --> 22:01.560 actually moderation tooling in Europe in the EU is actually quite I wouldn't say non-existent 22:01.560 --> 22:08.280 but it's I mean most of these powerful tools they they are developed and it hosted 22:08.280 --> 22:15.480 outside of the EU and and if something is decentralized like like the Fedivers is supposed to 22:15.480 --> 22:22.600 to work not only I think that we can figure out the technical part probably also the user interface 22:22.600 --> 22:29.320 but but the moderation and what this means and and obviously also legal questions there 22:29.880 --> 22:36.520 needed do we do we have any server moderators or managers in the room out of curiosity if you 22:36.520 --> 22:47.560 are very nice a little round of applause you guys really do amazing work of all the people who 22:47.560 --> 22:50.680 I've brought over to the Fedivers one of the things that shocked me the most and one of the things 22:50.680 --> 22:54.760 that I think shocked them the most is how rapidly moderation gets done compared to some of the 22:54.760 --> 22:59.640 other platforms so you do brilliant and frankly not very easy work thank you very much for 22:59.640 --> 23:11.480 your contributions so the time is starting to run out but we've still got a little more time 23:11.480 --> 23:16.280 and I have one final question for Sandra so we've talked about the need for all this tooling 23:17.080 --> 23:21.960 the question is how do we achieve that goal right so your organization has has been calling for 23:21.960 --> 23:27.640 solutions to develop Fedivers solutions could you tell us a little more about what you what 23:27.640 --> 23:34.200 you're calling for yeah so just before the you've been summit on digital sovereignty that took 23:34.200 --> 23:41.400 place in November in Berlin probably many of you have heard about it it was clear when they announced 23:41.400 --> 23:49.480 the program that yeah again the the concept of digital sovereignty as it is discussed now 23:49.560 --> 23:57.080 is way to narrow all the three of us participated in it and it was clear from the program so just 23:57.080 --> 24:04.520 three marks on why we think all of our 30 member organizations of the Alliance what are critiques 24:04.520 --> 24:10.520 on the concept of digital sovereignty to start first just to make it European repeat the same 24:10.600 --> 24:19.640 mistakes but make it European that won't work right they need to be at least open and if we 24:19.640 --> 24:26.600 come up with all kinds of national stacks as open source business Alliance for example criticized 24:26.600 --> 24:34.440 as well they need to be open stacks and then it's more important that they comply with the European 24:34.440 --> 24:39.640 law no matter if there are European or not they need to comply with the law and need to be open 24:39.880 --> 24:47.880 on a second aspect if we spend public money on a private European or not European companies 24:47.880 --> 24:55.880 I think it should also be the case that we spend public money for public interest digital infrastructure 24:55.880 --> 25:03.640 I think that's a very second need of recommendation and then for the third one the discussion 25:03.640 --> 25:10.600 under digital sovereignty is highly focused on clouds and whatever and as Alexander and Felix 25:10.600 --> 25:18.520 also mentioned social networks are relevant building block to gain digital sovereignty so social 25:18.520 --> 25:23.480 sovereignty is a part of digital sovereignty right and that it's not reflected in the discussion right 25:23.480 --> 25:31.080 now so and coming back to our demands so we started with four demands addressed mainly to the 25:31.080 --> 25:36.440 German government as they were the host of the summit and out of those four demands we have 25:36.440 --> 25:42.600 which you can find on our website as a policy paper and three languages to address to the 25:42.600 --> 25:50.040 Fediver's and the first one is the called so-called plus one principle it was invented by 25:50.040 --> 25:58.520 I've stopped on a very knowledgeable person from the Berlin libraries who said if public institutions 25:58.520 --> 26:05.240 that are funded by public money right if they do social media work they should at least do 26:05.240 --> 26:12.120 that work as well on one free open network so people can access this without having to have an 26:12.120 --> 26:19.160 account on a non-complying major platform and the second one is that we of course need funding right 26:19.160 --> 26:26.840 so in our case we have the sovereignty agency and Germany was really successful and in 26:26.920 --> 26:33.080 alliance with that we will call on a national budget for a Fediver's fund with an amount a yearly 26:33.080 --> 26:40.680 amount of 30 million years to get things going but as we have Alexander here and as we are in Brussels 26:42.280 --> 26:47.960 this thing is we have the negotiations going on for the multi-anial financial framework right 26:47.960 --> 26:54.920 and also there we need money now because if it's not in the budget now in the next four years 26:55.000 --> 27:01.480 nothing will happen so those are two demands we would raise that's excellent and the very best time to 27:01.480 --> 27:11.560 ask that question so we have a three minutes for questions so my proposal would be we take a 27:11.560 --> 27:15.560 question from a man and a question from woman or we take a question from you know a mixture of 27:15.560 --> 27:20.520 participants I can see one two questions so this is really good the two people who raise the hands 27:20.520 --> 27:31.000 will get the mic in the middle and at the back there lovely thanks hi I'm out in from matrix 27:31.000 --> 27:36.680 so on the reputation things I think it's worth pointing out that they're more and more open to 27:36.680 --> 27:41.640 lean I'm thinking about people like Rus for example who are working hard to resist I think 27:41.640 --> 27:47.400 you're working with them at Macedon but otherwise as sister decentralized project would love to 27:47.400 --> 27:51.800 collaborate on decentralized reputation the other question I was going to have with about funding 27:51.800 --> 27:57.640 thank you for raising it it's good that we get funding from everywhere any thoughts on more business 27:57.640 --> 28:07.640 model masterdom side maybe any business model you would recommend so we are not on profit so 28:08.760 --> 28:16.040 obviously this is different for us than it might be for for profit players we believe that 28:17.000 --> 28:24.600 advertisement is not something that that we want to do but we want to try it's the non-profit way 28:24.600 --> 28:30.760 we are much more motivated to become something someday to become something like the Wikipedia for 28:30.760 --> 28:37.560 for social media instead of becoming the next Twitter so for us the business model is pretty 28:37.560 --> 28:43.400 pretty clear this doesn't mean that there can't be other non-advertisement business models on top 28:43.400 --> 28:52.120 but this is basically our position right now. Hi first of all thank you for your 28:52.120 --> 28:58.760 lex center for your work for DSA and for a standing argument is abuses from this platforms thank 28:58.760 --> 29:03.800 you very much and for being here because there are just a few politicians that are here and my 29:03.800 --> 29:08.600 question is what do you think the fact that we have the majority of the members of the 29:08.600 --> 29:15.960 parliament is still on x 60 percent. Why we already have European solutions like most of 29:15.960 --> 29:23.000 the on the Fedverse we have already tools to contact the members of the parliament like levex.eu 29:23.000 --> 29:32.600 how could it wouldn't if the other politicians left x I think we might have patched me on the 29:33.240 --> 29:43.480 very sorry. Yeah I think that you know well we discussed this with other politicians 29:44.200 --> 29:49.960 the problem it's it's like a circle because you know politicians on x because that's where the 29:49.960 --> 29:55.000 journalists are and if you want to have visibility and traditional media is a politician you 29:55.000 --> 29:59.320 comment something that happens on x and the journalists read on x what we say and then they put it in 29:59.400 --> 30:03.960 their articles that's the way it works this is why the journalists don't leave because well that's 30:03.960 --> 30:09.320 where the politicians are you know so it goes around and round and I've been saying for a long 30:09.320 --> 30:17.480 time we would need a day x to leave and we haven't done it I'm sorry I'm not on x anymore so 30:18.280 --> 30:22.520 but it's very hard to convince colleagues because they're saying you know the only things 30:22.520 --> 30:27.640 gonna happen if I leave is I'm gonna be irrelevant and everybody else is still gonna be there and 30:27.720 --> 30:32.280 right now this is exactly this is true unfortunately you know some of the progressives have left 30:32.600 --> 30:36.360 and the conservatives and the center there's still there and then the programs say well if we 30:36.360 --> 30:42.120 all leave we can't even influence what's happening there anymore and I try to explain how the 30:42.120 --> 30:47.560 algorithm works and if you're progressive you're relevant anyway but you know that's a little bit 30:47.560 --> 30:54.200 the thing I think the important thing is the important thing is that the commission you know the 30:54.280 --> 30:59.640 governments shouldn't be there you know what is the commission president still doing on x 30:59.640 --> 31:05.160 when anybody can post a new picture of her under below what she says you know those should be 31:05.160 --> 31:10.360 where the real power lies they should be the first to leave and then the journalists and the other 31:10.360 --> 31:14.200 politicians would follow so I totally support it but that's that's the explanation 31:18.840 --> 31:23.960 so I really wish we had more time for this discussion and I can see some hands some very eager hands 31:23.960 --> 31:27.640 and I'm very sorry that we haven't been able to get around to you and we're definitely gonna 31:27.640 --> 31:33.480 do this again next the next post them so thank you so much all of you for being here and thank you 31:33.480 --> 31:37.880 especially to all of our esteemed panelists brilliant panelists and I'm so so so so honored to have 31:37.880 --> 31:45.560 been able to moderate this session say thank you very much everybody